Jump to content


Photo

Kotel Compromise: Mixed-Gender Worship


  • Please log in to reply
886 replies to this topic

#1 Elana

Elana

    Professor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,544 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:54 PM

http://www.vosizneia...n-prayer-shawls

 

 

 

Jerusalem - The rabbi of Judaism’s holiest prayer site has backed a proposal to establish a prayer section for mixed-gender worship, a groundbreaking motion that could end a decades-old fight against Orthodox monopoly of the area.

 

Western Wall rabbi Shmuel Rabinovich told Army Radio Wednesday that he does not like non-Orthodox prayer, but would tolerate it in a separate section to end intra-Jewish fighting at the site. Orthodox prayers ban men and women from worshipping together.

 

The semi-governmental Jewish Agency said Tuesday it drafted a plan to expand the Western Wall plaza to create a permanent area for mixed-gender and women-led prayer. The plan will be presented to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

 

Netanyahu asked the agency to draft a solution after an uproar over the arrests of liberal female worshippers.

 

i saw this on yahoo today as well but can't find now



#2 Gabbe

Gabbe

    Suggester of Most Things Awesome

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,410 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:55 PM

Try.



#3 Elana

Elana

    Professor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,544 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:56 PM

did. leaving in a few mins



#4 Gabbe

Gabbe

    Suggester of Most Things Awesome

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,410 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:56 PM

http://forward.com/a...ports-plan-for/

 

Took me less than a minute. I googled Women of the Wall and it was the top result.



#5 Elana

Elana

    Professor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,544 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:58 PM

i didn't google but checked on the yahoo page news cause that's where i saw it



#6 Indigo

Indigo

    Dean

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,723 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:02 PM

1. WOW is not egalitarian. One shouldn't conflate the women's prayer groups of WOW with the egalitarian prayer groups of Reform and Conservative. WOW is not mixed gender prayer.

 

2. I'll believe it when I see it. This could be a stalling tactic by the gov't to take the steam out of the protests, a headline grabber, followed by another two decades of committees and inquiries and debate

 

3. even if scharansky is sincere, the beauraucrats can stall

 

4. the charedim can stop it

 

5. let's see what the actual proposal is, tachlis. so far it's just talk and pipe dreams. there are physical layout problems with the area of the western wall south of the current kotel plaza.



#7 Snag

Snag

    מי זה מחשיך עצה

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,041 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:04 PM

Besides, as the WotW controversy was explained in the other thread, they will nOt be satisfied with being confined to any one area. They want to be able to conduct women's services at any area of the Kotel they please, period. (yes, even then)
" All my life I have tried to pluck a thistle and plant a flower wherever the flower would grow in thought and mind."

#8 Indigo

Indigo

    Dean

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,723 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:06 PM

WOW are pure (even then). While the concept of compromise is foreign to charedim, one can't assume they will not be satisfied with a compromise, provided it is reasonable and not a smokescreen for further delays.



#9 Gabbe

Gabbe

    Suggester of Most Things Awesome

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,410 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:07 PM

i didn't google

So you didn't try.

#10 Indigo

Indigo

    Dean

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,723 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:10 PM

WOW has been at this since December 1988. Sue me for being skeptical it's suddenly solved.



Why now?

 

What was the tipping point? The Charedim excluded from the coalition? The terrible publicity of women to be arrested for saying kaddish as a final straw? The Israeli public totally fed up with the one way accommodations of the Charedim? The photo ops of tzanchanim siding with WOW?



if the police stop arresting and strip searching women for davening, that might be a show of good faith. anyone know what happened this morning at the kotel?



#11 Snag

Snag

    מי זה מחשיך עצה

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,041 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:12 PM

WOW are pure (even then). While the concept of compromise is foreign to charedim, one can't assume they will not be satisfied with a compromise, provided it is reasonable and not a smokescreen for further delays.

Nobody has yet explained to me why Robinson's Arch was not a reasonable compromise.
" All my life I have tried to pluck a thistle and plant a flower wherever the flower would grow in thought and mind."

#12 Indigo

Indigo

    Dean

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,723 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:16 PM

Nobody has yet explained to me why Robinson's Arch was not a reasonable compromise.

b/c of the physical layout. you try davening there.

 

there was actually a commission that went there to explore the possibility but even they realized it wouldn't work.

 

let's look at some pictures...



eta... hold on, now i can't find it. there was a slideshow of davening there.



in the meantime, read this

 

http://womenofthewal...robinsons-arch/



#13 Snag

Snag

    מי זה מחשיך עצה

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,041 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:16 PM

Okay, I did not hear that explanation. All I got in the other thread were explanations that it is inherently offensive to force them to be in a specific, separate area.
" All my life I have tried to pluck a thistle and plant a flower wherever the flower would grow in thought and mind."

#14 Indigo

Indigo

    Dean

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,723 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:22 PM

ok, here are the pictures. scroll down to the slideshow, start at picture 15

 

http://www.huffingto...l#slide=1661670



as you can see, it's not an area conducive to prayer. it's not paved, they don't have facilities like where to wash, or bathrooms, it's not covered from the rain, there are HUGE stones that you can't move... in short, it's an archeological site and not a prayer area. it is also physically difficult to get to, all the more so if you're pregnant or have a baby or stroller with you.

 

besides being lumped together with C and R.

and besides the principle of being exluded from the kotel plaza proper just b/c charedim throw chairs and feces



look at pictures 15-20

 

that's the area that's been designated. i forget what year, but it was years ago...it was there when i was there in 2008. so it's not like it's being improved. it simply isn't an area conducive to prayer.

 

now you can argue the gov't will improve it. they will pave it, install a shelter, proper aron kodesh's, proper stairs and entrances etc...but why haven't they done so already?



#15 Snag

Snag

    מי זה מחשיך עצה

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,041 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:23 PM

Ophel Archaeological Park = Robinson's Arch?
" All my life I have tried to pluck a thistle and plant a flower wherever the flower would grow in thought and mind."

#16 Indigo

Indigo

    Dean

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,723 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:27 PM

i think robinson's arch is a section of the ophel park. most of the ophel park is the southern wall excavations, but that it wraps around a little to western wall, and that's where robinson's arch is, on the western wall, but the southern end of it



look at picture 15. that's robinson's arch on the southern end of the western wall, right near the corner. so that area is a section of the larger ophel park.



#17 Snag

Snag

    מי זה מחשיך עצה

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,041 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:32 PM

i think robinson's arch is a section of the ophel park. most of the ophel park is the southern wall excavations, but that it wraps around a little to western wall, and that's where robinson's arch is, on the western wall, but the southern end of it


look at picture 15. that's robinson's arch on the southern end of the western wall, right near the corner. so that area is a section of the larger ophel park.

Okay.
" All my life I have tried to pluck a thistle and plant a flower wherever the flower would grow in thought and mind."

#18 Moshi

Moshi

    Dean

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,543 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:32 PM

"Robinson’s Arch is an archaeological and tourist site, charges a fee for entrance and is open only limitedly though out the week. Robinson’s Arch is a space designated for mixed prayer (male and female), whereas Women of the Wall is a women’s only prayer group that includes Orthodox women, who do not pray with men. Robinson’ Arch does not have Torah scrolls or siddurim to pray with. Robinson’s Arch is not suitable for prayer for Women of the Wall."  

 

 

The new proposal seems to create an egal space, but that is different from Orthodox women-only or even partnership minyanim.

I guess the idea is that once there is a place for the pinko-liberals they will somehow duke it out between themselves.

 

Maybe the Kotel should be like a Frumster profile -- enter through the gate that best describes your hashkafah.

 

Regardless, between the charedim and the bureaucrats and the Waqf I'm not betting on this getting implemented.



#19 Indigo

Indigo

    Dean

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,723 posts

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:38 PM

Right, that is my point too. I'll believe it when I see it.

#20 starwolf

starwolf

    curmudgeon

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,702 posts

Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:19 AM

the news form today:

http://www.timesofis...t-western-wall/

According to a radio report that I heard, in addition to the 5 women being arrested/detained/ whatever for wearing tallitot, a hareidi man was also detained/arrested/whatever for defacing/burning one of their siddurim.

 

I think that there is a good chance that this compromise will go through in theory. In practice, since it involves a very sensitive renovation of an archaeological site, it will take years, especially since now we are facing huge budget cuts here.

 

There is also a chance that with the new government, and a much younger, more activist knesset, that some of these bylaws regulating prayer at these sites can be changed.


הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ

doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users