Jump to content


Photo

Work vs. Torah Study


  • Please log in to reply
70 replies to this topic

#41 Sheretz b'yado

Sheretz b'yado

    Professor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,251 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:30 PM

umm. I don't know about that and it also depends on your definition of zionist.

 

First, was it so easy to go the US such that everyone really had that choice?

 

Second, what do you mean zionist? If you mean someone who values living in E. Israel, and loves the land, and is wonderfully gratified that the land is now under Jewish control--then I am a zionist, and I think my most yeshivish relatives are also zionists (and they are gur yeshivish). And your point is correct.

 

But if  you mean someone who ascribes religious significance to the state, or who believes the actions of the state can have religious significance and even halachic significance--then I certainly am no zionist, and I don't imagine your point would be correct either.



#42 Indigo

Indigo

    Dean

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,354 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:38 PM

That it's a way to avoid the army? Maybe that's part of it.

yes. I think the massive increases in torah study is because of aliyat hadorot as we approach the final redemption.
But I have seen it argued that it is enabled by the massive direct and indirect financial support of the gov't of israel and driven by the incentive to avoid the army. Eliminate mandatory army service (or so the argument goes) and the yeshivot will empty out.
Personally, I think torah is being used as a kardom not in the sense of public charity support but more because it is being used as a tool by the OPS for societal engineering: the real reason being disengagement from the larger society and turning inward, creating a society that only look inward. Where torah study is code for separation.

#43 Gabbe

Gabbe

    Suggester of Most Things Awesome

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,195 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:42 PM

umm. I don't know about that and it also depends on your definition of zionist.

Singing Hatikva. Speaking Hebrew. Going to the Army. Acknowledging Yom Haatzmaut even as a civil holiday, rather than the accursed 5 Iyar.

#44 Sheretz b'yado

Sheretz b'yado

    Professor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,251 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:47 PM

yes. I think the massive increases in torah study is because of aliyat hadorot as we approach the final redemption.
But I have seen it argued that it is enabled by the massive direct and indirect financial support of the gov't of israel and driven by the incentive to avoid the army. Eliminate mandatory army service (or so the argument goes) and the yeshivot will empty out.
Personally, I think torah is being used as a kardom not in the sense of public charity support but more because it is being used as a tool by the OPS for societal engineering: the real reason being disengagement from the larger society and turning inward, creating a society that only look inward. Where torah study is code for separation.

 

So basically you found a dynamic that they are trying to encourage a certain lifestyle which looks inward and doesn't engage with secular society.

 

And instead of saying that they want that because that they think that is the appropriate way to serve Hashem,  you decide to call it "a kardom for societal engineering".

 

Simply astonishing.


Singing Hatikva. Speaking Hebrew. Going to the Army. Acknowledging Yom Haatzmaut even as a civil holiday, rather than the accursed 5 Iyar.

 

Do those all speak to the same thing? And can the opposition to them all be for only one reason?

 

I'll sing Hatikva, but I like to sing a version of the words I heard in Yad v'shem on a recording from europe that replaced the am chafshi with a better line.

I'll speak hebrew.

I won't go to the army. Not because I want the state to fall; because I think it will be bad for my ruchniyos, and it isn't necessary. (I'm not in yeshiva anyway.) I'd be happy on that score to take over the entire army and have it be run by people like me, and excuse the chilonim from it (a huge number of them avoid it anyway).

I will acknowledge Yom haatzmaut as a civil holiday. Come see how much I celebrate any civic holiday in america.

 

But can't you imagine that in the context of all these things being given religious significance, that I'd want to separate myself from them to avoid being part of something I really severely disagree with?



#45 Indigo

Indigo

    Dean

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,354 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:00 PM

By simply not paskening like that Rambam. While the Rambam was clearly opposed to one's torah learning being supported through public charity and opposed rabbinical salaries and opposed making torah a kardom lachpor bah,
Other Rishonim ruled otherwise. So we can just pasken like the other Rishonim.
Contrary to the claims of the Rambamist wackos we don't actually live in 12th century Fostat. The situation has changed and so has halachah along with it.
And anyway, if you really wanted to, you could probably parse that Rambam to death and claim the current kollel system doesnt violate it any more than his brother's financial support violated it.

Mind you, we are talking about a rabbi who lived in Egypt.

Moshi, here is a set of two online shiurim, the first focuses on the Rambam and the second on other Rishonim. Look at the top right for the pdf's of the source sheets, they are in english and hebrew.

Long story short, we pasken like not-the-rambam, for a variety of reasons.

 

http://www.yutorah.o..._Study,_Part_I#

 

http://www.yutorah.o..._Study,_Part_II


However, as I said above, I think we pasken like not-the-rambam on this issue b/c of aliyat hadorot. Along with various historical reasons as Judaism adapts to changing times and places.



#46 leo

leo

    Student

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 261 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:20 PM

But their income comes from selling amulets and blessings, whereas the Rambam's income came from practicing medicine (such as it was).


for the most part, I'm not sure those are real kabalists...But with regards to the Rambam himself, at first he sat and learned and was supported by his brother, it was only after his brother was lost at sea that he stated to practice medicine for a living and to support his as well as his brothers family.

#47 Gabbe

Gabbe

    Suggester of Most Things Awesome

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,195 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:34 PM

I'm sure the Kehilla in Fostat would have been thrilled to give him a salary had he asked.

#48 Indigo

Indigo

    Dean

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,354 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:43 PM

I'm sure the Kehilla in Fostat would have been thrilled to give him a salary had he asked.

Hmmm. An interesting question. Would the Karaites, the largest and wealthiest group he was nagid of, have supported him financially?

#49 Gabbe

Gabbe

    Suggester of Most Things Awesome

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,195 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:05 PM

The rabbinites weren't too bad off either.

#50 leo

leo

    Student

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 261 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:41 PM

I'm sure the Kehilla in Fostat would have been thrilled to give him a salary had he asked.

 
 

Hmmm. An interesting question. Would the Karaites, the largest and wealthiest group he was nagid of, have supported him financially?


I wonder if there are any letters from the Rambam that can shed light on this.

#51 Indigo

Indigo

    Dean

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,354 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:50 PM




I wonder if there are any letters from the Rambam that can shed light on this.


His letter to Joseph ibn Shamun seems to say there were opportunities to accept positions bestowed by the exilarch.

#52 starwolf

starwolf

    curmudgeon

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,690 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:59 PM

 

 

Second, what do you mean zionist? If you mean someone who values living in E. Israel, and loves the land, and is wonderfully gratified that the land is now under Jewish control--then I am a zionist, and I think my most yeshivish relatives are also zionists (and they are gur yeshivish). And your point is correct.

 

But if  you mean someone who ascribes religious significance to the state, or who believes the actions of the state can have religious significance and even halachic significance--then I certainly am no zionist, and I don't imagine your point would be correct either.

 

Singing Hatikva. Speaking Hebrew. Going to the Army. Acknowledging Yom Haatzmaut even as a civil holiday, rather than the accursed 5 Iyar.

 

The latter. But for a simple reason: following the shoah, they simply saw the benefits of having the protection of a Jewish State, with a Jewish army, where Jews fought together, and, if necessary died together. the other model, where the Jews only died together, left them bereft. With the Zionist model, there was at least a chance of survival (with G-d's help).

 

Basically, the vast majority of the hareidi survivors of the Shoah saw that the advice of their rebbes in prewar Europe was wrong, and the Zionists  were correct.


הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ

doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#53 Sheretz b'yado

Sheretz b'yado

    Professor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,251 posts

Posted 18 June 2013 - 11:03 PM

The latter. But for a simple reason: following the shoah, they simply saw the benefits of having the protection of a Jewish State, with a Jewish army, where Jews fought together, and, if necessary died together. the other model, where the Jews only died together, left them bereft. With the Zionist model, there was at least a chance of survival (with G-d's help).

 

Basically, the vast majority of the hareidi survivors of the Shoah saw that the advice of their rebbes in prewar Europe was wrong, and the Zionists  were correct.

 

You are basically describing the first theory of mine (with some gratuitious rabbi bashing). But you say you are agreeing with the latter.



#54 starwolf

starwolf

    curmudgeon

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,690 posts

Posted 19 June 2013 - 05:56 AM

 

 

I won't go to the army. Not because I want the state to fall; because I think it will be bad for my ruchniyos, 

 

I am always astonished at hariedim, while claiming the superiority of their hashkafa over others when it comes to avodat Hashem, shmirat mitzvot, and ruchniot, then turn around and say that service in the IDF/university education/whatever would damage such ruchniut.  Why is that? Is your Torah so weak that it can't stand exposure to a wider cultrue. Will the sight of a woman's thigh or a texbook on evolution make you forget Hashem? 

 

It sure makes a lousy case for hareidi education and hashkafa.

 

and it isn't necessary.

 

Necessary for whom? The country? You don't think that Israel needs an army? Or is it that only the nonhareidim need risk their lives?

But can't you imagine that in the context of all these things being given religious significance, that I'd want to separate myself from them to avoid being part of something I really severely disagree with?

 

What do you severely disagree with?


הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ

doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#55 Sheretz b'yado

Sheretz b'yado

    Professor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,251 posts

Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:08 AM

I am always astonished at hariedim, while claiming the superiority of their hashkafa over others when it comes to avodat Hashem, shmirat mitzvot, and ruchniot, then turn around and say that service in the IDF/university education/whatever would damage such ruchniut.  Why is that? Is your Torah so weak that it can't stand exposure to a wider cultrue. Will the sight of a woman's thigh or a texbook on evolution make you forget Hashem? 

 

It sure makes a lousy case for hareidi education and hashkafa.

 

Your question about the woman's thigh--which is the relevant half of your question in regards to the army--is a stupid one.

Your question about the textbooks is reasonable, but the answer is that everyone is well aware that kids go to university from all sorts of cultures and just get plain old indoctrinated while there.

 

 

Necessary for whom? The country? You don't think that Israel needs an army? Or is it that only the nonhareidim need risk their lives?

 

You are being deliberately obtuse. It is necessary that there be an army, but it is not necessary that the chareidim be in it. I would gladly trade that only chareidim would go to the army and the reshaim would all stay home, since then we'd also de facto control the country.

 

 

What do you severely disagree with?

 

Really? What do I disagree with? I'm not answering that here. Start a different thread, entitle it "what about the zionism and the state of israel do you agree or disagree with" and I'll think about posting there. Or better yet, just go read any of myriad threads on that topic here or on any other frum website.



#56 starwolf

starwolf

    curmudgeon

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,690 posts

Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:39 AM

 
You are being deliberately obtuse. It is necessary that there be an army, but it is not necessary that the chareidim be in it. I would gladly trade that only chareidim would go to the army and the reshaim would all stay home, .

So there are only hareidim and reshaim?

And when it comes to serving the country, you cannot associate with anyone other than hareidim?

As far as an army of hareidim only, somehow I don't think it would work. Scatflinging has not been a useful form of warfare since the evolution of homo sapiens.


I do wonder at your fearof "indoctrination" at university. Hareidim have 18 years of intense education. One would think that that might be enough to enable them to resist such indoctrination. Unless, of course, you are saying that university methods of education are superior to hareidi systems of education.

הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ

doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#57 Sheretz b'yado

Sheretz b'yado

    Professor

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,251 posts

Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:42 AM

And when it comes to serving the country, you cannot associate with anyone other than hareidim?

 

No, that isn't the reason. I don't know how you'd read my post and think that was what I was saying.

 


As far as an army of hareidim only, somehow I don't think it would work. Scatflinging has not been a useful form of warfare since the evolution of homo sapiens.

 

Right, exactly. So why do you think you need them in the army?

 

 

I do wonder at your fearof "indoctrination" at university. Hareidim have 18 years of intense education. One would think that that might be enough to enable them to resist such indoctrination. Unless, of course, you are saying that university methods of education are superior to hareidi systems of education.

 

That doesn't follow. Sorry. This isn't something I need to demonstrate; everyone knows that you send an 18 year old to college and he comes back thinking like the college does.

 



#58 starwolf

starwolf

    curmudgeon

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,690 posts

Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:52 AM

No, that isn't the reason. I don't know how you'd read my post and think that was what I was saying.

 

Seemed pretty obvious to me. It's everyone else or the hareidim:

only chareidim would go to the army and the reshaim would all stay home

 

How does that sound to you? Or don't you read your own posts (following the example of those that put you on ignore)?

Right, exactly. So why do you think you need them in the army?

 

Because the IDF needs manpower. And the hareidim can be trained to be effective soldiers. But the idea of an army of only hareidim is ridiculous.

 

everyone knows that you send an 18 year old to college and he comes back thinking like the college does.

 

Nonsense. Plenty of people know their own minds and simply have their horizons expanded in university. It's called education. And one would think that those who are best trained to use their minds could resist any indoctrination. and of course, yeshiva dogma says that yeshiva training is the best possible training. But that doesn't bear out in real life, does it? Not in university, not in the army.


הַתְקַשֵּׁר מַעֲדַנּוֹת כִּימָה אוֹ-מֹשְׁכוֹת כְּסִיל תְּפַתֵּחַ

doubt not through the ages one increasing purpose runs, and the thoughts of men are widened with the process of the suns.

#59 leo

leo

    Student

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 261 posts

Posted 19 June 2013 - 09:10 AM

His letter to Joseph ibn Shamun seems to say there were opportunities to accept positions bestowed by the exilarch.


Where would I find the letter?

#60 Indigo

Indigo

    Dean

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,354 posts

Posted 19 June 2013 - 09:31 AM

Where would I find the letter?

I'm trying to find it online. Maybe it's in that book by Stitskin:

http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0873063023

 

but keep in mind Joseph ibn Shamun is called Joseph ibn Aknin in that book (and elsewhere) -- Sham'un is his arabic name.

 

anyway, look at the rambam's pirkei avot commentary on 4:5 ( the one on not making your torah a kardom) -- he seems to imply that the people would be fine supporting rabbis, and rabbis weren't not supported b/c people didn't want to -- rather, the issue was rabbis would not accept money for their torah.

However, that said, this article disputes how I'm reading the commentary, and says Rabbis CAN accept money, they just can't solicit money.

 

http://www.mhcny.org/parasha/1192.pdf

 

 

Trial balloon:

That said, I wonder if Rambam's stance against paying rabbis (which requires some selective memory of talmud passages) was political. A reaction against the Babylonian power structure. I doubt it, but maybe there was an element there.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users