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#1 Indigo

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 06:16 AM

This is a practical halacha question.
My wife told me that buying two lottery tickets demonstrates a lack of belief in God. The purpose of littery tickets is to form a keli and God decides if you will win. God certainly doesn't need two tockets to make you win.
(In my opinion, two tickets demonstrates greater hishtadlut and it is ok. Just like you can seek any doctor but going to a better doctor is greater hishtadlut rather than a lack of emunah in God's power to act through a doctor to hide His miracle. But I defer to my wife's psak).
My question is: is it ok to buy two different types of lottery tickets at one time, or is that still considered two tickets?

#2 Snag

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 07:26 AM

I disagree with your wife, but only as an absolute. Hishtadlus is not a fixed point, but a continuum, relative to a person's level of emunah. For her level of emunah, it might indeed be superfluous to buy two tickets, but for someone else's it might be acceptable hishtadlis.

To your question, it depends on whether the two lotteries have significantly different Prizes.
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#3 warren

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 07:42 AM

One should buy at least one lottery ticket a year to demonstrate one's belief that the laws of probability do not apply to Jews any more than astrology does.  In the event that several people combine to buy a single ticket, each one's contribution should be at least one perutah.


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#4 Indigo

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 08:00 AM

To your question, it depends on whether the two lotteries have significantly different Prizes.

both are cash. on different days. same lottery corporation.

I don't want to give too many details because as bad as denying God's abilities to perform miracles and His hashgachah preratit, the danger of ayin hara is far greater.



#5 Indigo

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 08:17 AM

 For her level of emunah, it might indeed be superfluous to buy two tickets, but for someone else's it might be acceptable hishtadlis.

 

Right. God's hashgachah preratit is commensurate with the degree that they cleave to God. The more we walk with God be'keri, the more He walks with us be'keri. Someone who is complete in His emunah and deveikut with God will experience divine intervention commensurate with his sins and good deeds. Someone who distances himself from God will experience a world that appears as if to operate according to the laws of nature and lottery probability.



#6 warren

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 09:12 AM

both are cash. on different days. same lottery corporation.

I don't want to give too many details because as bad as denying God's abilities to perform miracles and His hashgachah preratit, the danger of ayin hara is far greater.

 

God's children only were victorious over him once, but the ayin hara does it constantly.

 

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#7 jewess

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 09:36 AM

Buying lottery tickets is a tax for stupidly.

#8 int

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 12:16 PM

Right. God's hashgachah preratit is commensurate with the degree that they cleave to God. The more we walk with God be'keri, the more He walks with us be'keri. Someone who is complete in His emunah and deveikut with God will experience divine intervention commensurate with his sins and good deeds. Someone who distances himself from God will experience a world that appears as if to operate according to the laws of nature and lottery probability.


I disagree. I think hishtadlus is a necessary component of one's avodah, independent of one's level of faith, and so even people who indeed have the highest levels of emunah should still act in accordance with the laws of nature - i.e. buy lottery tickets. Their emunah level influences what they believe, in their minds, the outcome will be. It should not influence their actions.

This is an application of the general precept of "You should not rely on miracles" - i.e. you should not let your faith (in G-d, in miracles, etc.) influence your actions.

#9 Indigo

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 12:58 PM

that's very convenient for the slippery fundamentalists. it allows them to pay lip service to divine providence, and direct reward and punishment, without having to actually rely on it, and with an exemption to pretend to act as if it doesn't exsit. Convenient. "God heals. I am just going to go through the motions of using a doctor".

 

at the end of the day, both Sender and Brian will be using a doctor. Sender in his mind is just pretending. Brian actually believes doctors are efficacious.

 

but the whole world is just an illusion and a play for the slippery fundamentalists, pretending and going through the motions of day to day life.



#10 Snag

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 01:09 PM

I disagree. I think hishtadlus is a necessary component of one's avodah, independent of one's level of faith, and so even people who indeed have the highest levels of emunah should still act in accordance with the laws of nature - i.e. buy lottery tickets. Their emunah level influences what they believe, in their minds, the outcome will be. It should not influence their actions.

This is an application of the general precept of "You should not rely on miracles" - i.e. you should not let your faith (in G-d, in miracles, etc.) influence your actions.

But buying a lottery ticket is a far lower level of hishtadlus than, say, going out and getting a job (RL). So, yes, it removes the necessity of relying on an absolute miracle, but it still requires a fair bit of faith.
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#11 Indigo

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 01:18 PM

it's not even hishtadlut. the argument is it is a keli. as if God needs props to give you money and can't figure a way to do it other than a lottery. it's saying God needs me help. not my effort, but my help.



#12 int

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 04:52 PM

at the end of the day, both Sender and Brian will be using a doctor. Sender in his mind is just pretending. Brian actually believes doctors are efficacious.


I'm not sure what 'pretending' means in this context. Sender still believes that if does not use his doctor, he will not get better. Brian believes the same thing. In this cause and effect sense, both believe that doctors are 'efficacious'.

The difference between them is that Sender also believes that the reason, or causative agent, of his getting better via going to a doctor, is G-d. Brian, being an apikores of sorts, believes the causative agent is solely the doctor.

#13 Snag

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 05:44 PM

it's not even hishtadlut. the argument is it is a keli. as if God needs props to give you money and can't figure a way to do it other than a lottery. it's saying God needs me help. not my effort, but my help.

Making a keli is the bare minimum level of hishtadlus. It's not that G-d cant find another way, it's that He tells us to, by our efforts, create means by which he can give us things through the natural order, rather than resorting to the supernatural.
" All my life I have tried to pluck a thistle and plant a flower wherever the flower would grow in thought and mind."

#14 Rainbow

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 03:15 PM

This is a practical halacha question.
My wife told me that buying two lottery tickets demonstrates a lack of belief in God. The purpose of littery tickets is to form a keli and God decides if you will win. God certainly doesn't need two tockets to make you win.
(In my opinion, two tickets demonstrates greater hishtadlut and it is ok. Just like you can seek any doctor but going to a better doctor is greater hishtadlut rather than a lack of emunah in God's power to act through a doctor to hide His miracle. But I defer to my wife's psak).
My question is: is it ok to buy two different types of lottery tickets at one time, or is that still considered two tickets?

Your wife is working off the assumption that you're going to win first prize. But if you work off the assumption that you might win lesser prizes, one ticket might win second and the other third. If you only bought one ticket, you could only win once. Same goes for buying a ticket for two different lotteries.

#15 Indigo

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 07:08 PM

I think the assumption is God can manipulate the lottery to give you exactly what tou deserve with any one ticket.

#16 Rainbow

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 07:49 PM

I think the assumption is God can manipulate the lottery to give you exactly what tou deserve with any one ticket.

Again, that's assuming "what you deserve" is a specific amount of money. How do you know "what you deserve" isn't "winning third prize"?



#17 Indigo

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Posted 13 January 2016 - 02:23 PM

Pesulim le'eidut
Theologically suspect
And fraudsters for using donated money

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#18 Snag

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Posted 13 January 2016 - 05:47 PM

And, most importantly, wacked!
" All my life I have tried to pluck a thistle and plant a flower wherever the flower would grow in thought and mind."

#19 politico

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Posted 13 January 2016 - 08:36 PM

What's with the "477" thing? Isn't it an ayin hara to say exactly how many staff members you have?


OTD ברוך שעשני

#20 Indigo

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Posted 13 January 2016 - 08:54 PM

I guess for frummies, like trailer trash, this passes as financial planning.




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